i am in the process of determining which arrangement of the bach 6 suites i will purchase...i have already had suite 1 parts for lessons but now its time to
get them all....my teacher says to buy the cheapest as it doesnt matter and that is the schirmer edition....but i was looking at the reviews of the rosanoff
arrangement...comments were most like how casals played and notes were the easiest to read of all editions....any comments and/or recommendations for this old
adult student?....thank you all !
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 toadinthehole
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bach 6 suites arrangement |
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Posts: 18 11/06/09 07:30:37 |
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soccerandcello |
Favorite Bach edition | #1 | ||
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Reticent CelloChatter
Posts: 634 11/06/09 07:37:52 Active CelloChatter |
You'll find the biggest difference between editions is bowing and fingerings, when they are written in. Personally I like the Pierre Fournier from
International Publishing and the Barenriter Publishing Co. editions. The Dimtri Markevich edition (not sure on the publisher) is also good.
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celletto |
Freebee | #2 | ||
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Posts: 2526 11/06/09 07:45:06 Reticent CelloChatter |
I have been using the Dimitri Markevetich editon for some time but there are so many bowing and fingering changes i dont really see the point of using any
particular edition. There is also a facsimile edition which includes the sources that Markevitch used.
IMSLP has several editions: http://imslp.org/wiki/Suites_for_Violoncello_Solo,_BWV_1007-1012_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)#Manuscripts
Last Edited By: celletto 11/06/09 15:29:20.
Edited 3 times.
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Ellen G |
editions | #3 | ||
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Posts: 2482 11/06/09 08:49:01 Supporting CelloChatter |
Perhaps Tim's article on editions of the Bach Suites is
one you've already read. If not, check it out. My personal favorite is Wenzinger (one of two Barenreiter editions) because it offers assistance and
guidance, plenty of room to make changes as we all do. But I also have a bunch of other editions. In my case, as a "serious" adult amateur, I need
to see what other people do, try it to see what I am capable of doing with my current skill set, then creating my own ideas, and then checking editions again
to see if anyone else finds my ideas valid. Seeing possibilities is important, and there are many!
Last Edited By: Ellen G 11/06/09 09:06:43.
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toadinthehole |
bach 6 suites arrangement | #4 | ||
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New CelloChatter
Posts: 18 11/06/09 10:22:03 |
well i certainly did the right thing asking all of you....how informative and what fun!!...i will print out the article and share with my teacher....good thing
i have a lot of time before i need it....at this point in my "learning" i will follow the directions of my teacher so i will probably buy the
rosanoff arrangement or the schirmer after further discussion with her....but i can see this will only be the beginning of a Bach journey....this is a
wonderful forum and i thank all of you for taking time to share your comments with me.....i will be keeping them for further referance.....
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PATestore |
Bach 6 Suites Editions | #5 | ||
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Active CelloChatter
Posts: 124 11/06/09 13:25:29 Active CelloChatter |
I refer the Markevitch edition solely because it is easier to read. Theodore Presser (publisher) did not try to save on paper; the notes are large and spaces
between allow for clarity.
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mmayes |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 6 11/06/09 14:05:44 |
A related issue that I have come across is this. I am currently working on the 5th Bach suite and I am working with the Fournier edition. Unfortunately, this
edition does not include the original scordatura version of the 5th suite. Which editions have the scordatura version?
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Memo Ma |
scordatura | #7 | ||
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Posts: 2267 11/06/09 14:34:53 Supporting CelloChatter |
Baerenreiter/Wenzinger includes both (my most enthusiastic vote for that edition - pricier than alternatives but well worth it imho. Big thumbs down for
Fournier, as much as I revere him as a player it's very hard to work from that edition which gives you no clue as to which slurs in his romanticized
approach comes from the manuscript and which from him, and I really disliked the typesetting and layout). Ellen's catalog lists some features of the
editions and tells which include scordatura or not
http://www.cellos2go.com/...ow=unaccompanied%20cello Guillermo |
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kcello |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 38 11/06/09 15:31:29 |
The Gendron edition is my favorite... it includes both the scordatura and the original version of the 5th suite.
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sarah schenkman |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 3621 11/06/09 15:48:30 Supporting CelloChatter |
Another vote for the Barenreiter/Wenzinger - I've got lots of editions of the suites and that's my favorite.
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baroquecello |
a free and legal edition | #10 | ||
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Active CelloChatter
Posts: 478 11/07/09 03:27:55 Active CelloChatter |
by Werner Icking you can find here. Even
though I make different choices what bowings are concerned, on first glance this seems a good edition, similar in approach to Wenzingers, which is also quite
nice. Personally I use the facsimiles and read directly from those, but this is not a good idea for amateur players since it takes long to figure out what
exactly is written.
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badlands cello |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 425 11/07/09 10:20:50 |
sarah schenkman wrote:ditto v |
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guido |
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Posts: 2416 11/07/09 10:26:16 Supporting CelloChatter |
I also agree with the Barenreiter/Wenzinger choice.
We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep.
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raspritz |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 1125 11/07/09 10:37:57 Supporting CelloChatter |
I have many different editions of the Suites, including the Barenreiter urtext edition, which is the most 'scholarly' and interesting, but not a
playing edition. I agree with kcello that the Gendron edition is perhaps the best playing edition. Gendron obviously studied the Anna Magdalena manuscript
very carefully, and tried to resolve the inconsistencies in a very logical, musical way, possibly achieving something very close to what Bach actually
intended.
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cellofan07 |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 328 11/07/09 11:43:45 |
I really love the Wiener Urtext Edition - It has fold out pages for every movement that requires them, so there are zero obnoxious page turns and they also did
not spare on paper expenses. Every movement is spaciously laid out, and it is very clear about which slurs are manuscript-derived and which ones are editorial.
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Ellen G |
more ramblings | #15 | ||
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Reticent CelloChatter
Posts: 2482 11/08/09 10:51:18 Supporting CelloChatter |
Many of the editions rely heavily on the Anna Magdalena and try to "conform." This morning I put the Wenzinger, Gendron and Markevitch side by
side for fun. Wenzinger utilizes dotted v. solid slurs to indicate where the question marks lie and, as was said, Gendron makes a decision for you. The
layout on the page as far as readability... I don't understand some of the comments in the thread. If you open Gendron at random, you can find anywhere
from 6 to 12 staves on a page. I would describe an "overabundance" of fingerings in the Gendron. Once you're set up, I really don't need
every note fingered for me in that passage. One last hmmm.... I'm not sure if the Gendron has been with a single publisher over the years. I know it
was out of print for a while, and it's possible that while the editorial portion would be consistent, the publisher could have changed layout. Wiener has
some individual suites... say you just want Suite 1. You can buy just that, which is nice for some who will never venture into all 6 in this lifetime.
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toadinthehole |
thanks ellen | #16 | ||
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New CelloChatter
Posts: 18 11/08/09 11:38:50 |
thanks so much ellen for your comments....you zeroed in on where i was at right now in this decision....how easy are the notes to read...i am a senior citizen
and although good eyesight i like easy to read music if possible....you didn't mention the Markevitch for easy reading..what do you think....according to
above comments it is and a comment i have from somewhere else the rosanoff arrangement is also easy to read...that one it is said to be how casals(my favorite
) played Bach ...are you familiar with rosanoff?....and , of course , there is schirmer which my teacher told me is hers and what she learned on.... everyone
was so open with their comments i have learned so much about these suites....this will be only my first version...i am sure as i advance further i will get
others...right now i need easy to read.....thanks again from this old student
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Memo Ma |
Casals | #17 | ||
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Posts: 2267 11/08/09 13:42:40 Supporting CelloChatter |
I've never seen this Rosanoff edition but I'd be weary and suspicious of someone claiming it to be somehow "true" to what Casals played.
It's perhaps mentioned in the articles linked to above, or it may be there in other sources but Casals never produced an edition nor, to my knowledge,
endorsed any as "his" precisely because he didn't believe in a single, static approach to the suites and his ideas on fingerings and
articulations were constantly changing. You can clearly see this if you compare the old acoustical recordings from the 1910s or 1920s with his recordings from
the 1930s with the videos of his old age in the 1950s so just be careful and don't get swayed by the "Casals" name reference,
Guillermo |
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Bob |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 2825 11/08/09 14:23:38 Supporting CelloChatter |
To follow up on what Memo said, this holy grail of Casals's sainted interpretation is a chimera. There are several editions by people who studied with
Casals and who traded on that connection (Foley, Alexanian, Rosanoff), but they're all different. So what does that tell you?
The striving you should be doing is not to copy someone else, but to find your own voice, your own way through. Whatever edition you use should end up slathered with corrected fingerings and bowings. Having said all that, the Rosanoff edition is printed on oversize stock, and is in larger type. |
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toadinthehole |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 18 11/08/09 14:52:09 |
thank you so much Bob.....i do also understand what you and Memo are saying re: casals and making it my own...once i have some experience to get an idea of
what my own is i will def do that...and i am sure my teacher will be having me mark up whatever i buy as she said her schirmer is all marked up.....well i am
well ahead now as i don't restart Bach until after i finish Popper's Gavotte and i have a bit to go ...only a bit...before i start IT.....sometimes the
learning is more fun than the knowing...
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Ellen G |
multiple comments | #20 | ||
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Reticent CelloChatter
Posts: 2482 11/08/09 14:59:23 Supporting CelloChatter |
The Rosanoff edition makes it pretty clear from the introductory notes that they (Marie and Lieff Rosanoff) are Casals' students and that this edition is
based on their work and study with him over a period of years. I have not paid a lot of attention to the edition before, though I know a number of people
whose teachers raised them on it. And a lot of people tend to teach out of the materials they learned on. Rosanoff is similar to Gaillard in that it is
replete with dynamic suggestions. From a humorous perspective, if I had the suites under my belt enough that I only needed an emergency copy which packed as
much onto a page as possible to avoid page turns , Rosanoff would probably fit the bill. Where else can you find Suite IV's Sarabande, Bourree I and II
and Gigue all on two pages?
Anyway, I'm just commenting on issues of readability (my opinion alone) and not authenticity of scholarship -- is that even a term? Personally, I find "vanilla" paper easier to read than white for contrast. Since I started writing this post, and now, I see Bob had added a comment which I must take issue with. Perhaps Rosanoff USED to be oversize with large print but it's not now. I'm holding in my hand several editions, all the same size except Rosanoff which is 3/4 inches shorter and narrower. Things change. This is one of the geekiest posts I've ever been involved in, measuring paper and describing vanilla v. white paper and note font size. As an adult amateur, my personal vote still goes to Wenzinger after spending time in lots of editions and facsimiles till I got a headache. And an appreciation for print clarity and contrast and layout and ample space to change and add what I need. I do indeed refer to alternatate editions all the time, but Wenzinger is my playing edition. |
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