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PinkFluffySlippers	Discouraged		Lead	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 223 06/23/09 23:17:57 Active CelloChatter	Tags : None Hi, I'm really discouraged about my playing lately. I take lessons and play with a small orchestra. I've improved so much, but am still so far from sounding good. I'm realizing just how many technical aspects I need to master to sound the way I want to sound. I have decent intonation, and my rhythm is much improved. I thought all I needed to do was add vibrato and dynamics. But now I realize I have a lot more issues with both left and right hand. I can't get notes to sound connected because my bow stops. Each note has too much articulation at the beginning. Getting dynamics right is harder than I thought. I sound awful if I use the marked bowings, because my volume goes up when the bow goes faster whether I want it to or not. I get accents where I don't want them. On the left hand, my shifts are still very audible and my fourth finger notes don't sound clear. My trills and vibrato are both clumsy and uneven. I'm overwhelmed. It seems like so many aspects have to all come together at once before my playing will sound like music. I don't even know if it's an attainable goal. Can a late starter even get to the level of a good high school student? How many more years? I'm afraid my learning process is just too slow, and my practice time too limited. Stringed instruments are cruel! Last Edited By: PinkFluffySlippers 06/23/09 23:21:58. Edited 1 time.
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cellopurple	I think this will be familiar to loads of folk here!	#1	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 288 06/24/09 03:19:06 Supporting CelloChatter	Your post strikes lots of chords with me: I think what you are describing is really common among adult learners, and I've certainly felt really dispirited and fairly hopeless at times. It does always pass, usually because I've tried to focus on aspects that HAVE got better, instead of being overwhelmed with the elements that haven't. Adults are very self-critical. I think that's natural and I don't think you're alone in your frustrations. You've identified this big long list of 'problems' and it seems unmanageable, but it needs to be balanced against all the progress you have made. I have terrible problems doing this. I remember beating myself up last year because I couldn't get a grade 4 piece sounding nice and my teacher pointed out that I'd been playing twenty months and he was delighted that I was able to even tackle it. This year I've gone back to it and it's so enormously improved because my technique is a year further on. That was really encouraging. On the other hand, I'm playing a grade 6 piece just now that is terribly difficult. I'm learning loads but I suspect I'll not get it nice in the near future: it's too slow, the shifts can be heard in the next village and I just cannot master the dynamics properly. But I know that next year or the year afterwards, I'll go back to it and wonder what the problem was. I don't know how far I'll get with my cello, and my goals are very flexible to accommodate that: I'll get as far along the road as I can and enjoy it on the way. You say you have improved so much: I bet you have, and congratulations to you for it: we should not let our achievements be overshadowed by work in progress. You go girl!! Allison
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Ellen G		#2	[url]	[-]
Reticent CelloChatter Posts: 2462 06/24/09 03:43:50 Supporting CelloChatter	Hang in there! It seems like a long list, but a lot of items are related and once you start to get better control of your bow, things may start to fall into place a little easier. I would replace the concept of "mastering" with "working on" or "improving." These skills take a very long time to accomplish, they're not weekly improvements, and they also depend on the caliber of teaching you get, not just how much you practice. I have to say some teachers are just not as good or skilled as others when it comes to teaching their students bow control and how to get into the string instead of skating on it. Ultimately no matter how dexterous you are with your left hand, that bow arm either gets you the tone, dynamic range, articulation, or it doesn't. Oh, I may be dead wrong on my assessments here -- it's my opinion -- but it sure feels true to me. We're all always trying to get better while the music is throwing different challenges at us. I've had some higher caliber lessons outside of my regular teacher's studio and it's fascinating to have them zero in on different elements, more fundamental building blocks. That's why I say when you get key elements under control, others have a better chance of "falling into place" though I make that sound easier than it really is... Getting better at cello is usually a confluence of things coming together, and it involves proper teaching, a good cello and bow, good practice skills and patience, sensible repertoire and exercises, outside playing opportunities, etc. If any one of those things is not a good fit, the process slows or maybe goes awry. Anyway, you are a member of a very big club. I've got a lot of the same issues and I keep plugging along!
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Tim Janof	Welcome to the club!	#3	[url]	[-]
Reticent CelloChatter Posts: 1419 06/24/09 06:44:11 Administrator	I'll never forget watching Truls Mork beat himself up backstage after a Haydn C performance. It sounded great to me, but he was very upset. It seems that frustration is something that all but a few lucky ones must deal with, no matter the playing level. Keep on keeping on! Tim
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Bob	Encouragement	#4	[url]	[-]
Reticent CelloChatter Posts: 2802 06/24/09 06:51:24 Supporting CelloChatter	Pink, the last three posts are excellent, and you should take them to heart. Let me just add my perspective as a teacher specializing in adult amateurs. For better and for worse, adults are much more self-aware students than young'uns. Not just as far as their problem areas, but as far as their short- and mid-term goals. And the whole community orchestra milieu is an element that can have a huge impact (positive and negative) on the student's development. If you have a good teacher whom you trust, and he/she is giving you praise and encouragement, that is the feedback you should be resting on.* Not how much trouble you might have with outside repertoire that calls for technique you haven't yet mastered. It's normal to want to join groups, play with others, get your feet wet with real music, perform for a friendly audience, etc., etc. But the level of the group and the repertoire it plays must be well calibrated to where you are. Otherwise you will suffer. You yourself acknowledge that you've "improved so much." Well, if you continue to take lessons and practice regularly, what do you expect will happen? You'll improve so much more! You're tackling one of the most difficult instruments in one of the most difficult art forms there is. If gaining competency was a routine matter, like driving a car or carving a turkey, everyone would be able to do it. But the cello is something else entirely, and you need to take the long view. Review all of your outside musical activities with your teacher and see what is helping and what is not. Perhaps he/she can recalibrate some lesson material to help you with what is bugging you the most right now. Of course I have no idea how you really play or what your problems are, but I know that intensive work on scales is usually good for what ails ya. In any event, let me echo a previous post, that real progress is slow and is usually only perceived after the fact, like when you go back over music you were working on 6 months ago and notice that it's not as hard. You mention limited practice time, which is true for most of us. So it would also be a good idea to practice in front of your teacher, honestly as you do alone, to get tips on how to maximize limited time. Your progress does ultimately depend on sufficient practice time, but that only means that your goals will take longer, not that they're unattainable. So hang in there!!! * of course, if you have issues with your teacher, that skews things further, and is something you must address separately. Last Edited By: Bob 06/24/09 07:25:25. Edited 1 time.
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badlands cello		#5	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 406 06/24/09 07:35:11	Hang in there! I know how you feel. I started playing about a year and a half ago - after many years away from my cello. I have those times, where I feel like I am playing terribly, my arthritis isn't helping me, I couldn't get a nice bow stroke to save my life and think ARGHHHHHH!!!! I walk away. Then I come back later and something comes togehter - even in the same day of all things. Too, I'm getting ready for music camp. Last year, I was playing through a lot of Schroeder Book I etudes and getting my feet wet in Bach Bouree I and II Suite III. I coulnd't get a smooth trip through measure one in the Prelude of Suite I and today, I'm studying the complete Suite I. Is it perfect - well I think not, but I'm definately showing progress and what I learn there, helps me through everything else. I still have those times where I must walk away, but I keep coming back. I hope you do too. As a final thought, when I trained horses, there was usually a stage in what I was training the horse to do, where before the horse got better, he had to get worse. It was like the horse was learning to put the pieces together and it could get really bad and then all of a sudden, the pieces would come together and the lesson would be learned. We aren't that different from them in our learning process. Happy days are ahead. v
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PinkFluffySlippers		#6	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 223 06/24/09 10:25:14 Active CelloChatter	Thanks everyone. Lots of good points here and I feel less alone. I think I'm just at a transitional point, realizing there's so much more required than just hitting the notes & getting good tone. Actually it's good that I'm realizing that, right? It's like rounding a bend and seeing another long section of road ahead. My orchestra pieces are all pretty simple, so I'm not getting overwhelmed learning those. I realized all these things I need to do when I started trying to understand why my teacher & the first cellist in my group sound so much better than me, even on relatively simple pieces. My teacher doesn't really pick out technical issues so much, but if I ask lots of questions about what he's doing to sound the way he sounds, and what I'm doing or not doing, then he can explain pretty well. We went through the Sarabande from the 1st suite yesterday. I'm able to play the notes but it's not sounding very lovely at all. I thought if we went measure by measure and I listened to him that I could just copy what he's doing and get it sounding better. Well I couldn't. I just don't have the bowing technique to make it sound smooth and connected. I've been careless about bow distribution, and often ignore the marked bowings, just spontaneously doing what I can manage and what approximately fits the music. That's coming back to bite me now. I've also been sticking with pieces that hide my weaknesses. Baroque pieces with medium tempo and lots of notes are manageable. When I try to play anything more slow & melodic, yipes! It all shows. I guess I just have my work cut out for me. That's why I picked this instrument, right? Never-ending opportunity for improvement.
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DianaCaldwell	You've been listening to me practice!	#7	[url]	[-]
New CelloChatter Posts: 15 06/24/09 12:42:51	You described my playing to a "T". You are definitely not alone--and the many posts here have been helpful and encouraging to me as well. I often have to remind myself when I feel discouraged that I started this learning process for one reason--because I really wanted to. I have no delusions about becoming a star (proficient seems a reach at times). I just want to make progress, however slow, and continue to enjoy playing. When I am discouraged (the inevitable ups and downs in learning anything new) I do many of the things suggested--play something I struggled with 6 months ago, or walk away for a bit. My mental approach has a lot to do with how I will sound when I practice. Too high expectations, impatience with myself and frustration can be heard in every bow stroke. If I really don't feel like practicing, I let myself take some time off and come back to it with a fresh attitude. That can often be more beneficial than forced practice in a counter-productive state of mind. I would love to play better than I do at this point, or to have discovered some latent natural musical talent. Instead I have to settle for lots of practice and remind myself to be grateful I have both the opportunity and inclination to learn to play the cello and make music. Some day soon you will play a note or make a shift that is just "gloriously right" and you'll remember why you're doing this. Not all who wander are lost--JRR Tolkien
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MHamlen		#8	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 122 06/24/09 13:24:54 Active CelloChatter	It does get better. Even me. Proof this month. The summer chamber music school sent me a Mozart piano trio to prepare which by coincidence is a trio I struggled valiantly with and failed miserably at 2 years ago. Now it's a breeze. (How did that happen? And what was all the agony?) I'm still really horrid at budgeting the bow. But at least I now understand that it's a problem. Of course, I still have horribly limited limitations -- the same school also sent Tchaikovsky's first quartet to prepare. I'm completely out of my depth here.... (Will it be playable two years from now?) I suppose it's good to be patient with this instrument. I could be much further along if I played the flute or the clarinet, but then I'd have to play the flute or the clarinet! (smile) Courage. Mark
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celloswin	Encouragement	#9	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 91 06/24/09 20:58:32 Supporting CelloChatter	I hope you all realize that you are helping more than 'ol Pink and Fluffy with your posts. There are many, many of us who feel just as bad or worse and are not even doing as well as Pink is. I believe that this is one of the great virtues of this board and is one of the reasons that even after often bitter experiences here, people still return to it. Cullen
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Ellen Cello		#10	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 102 06/24/09 21:46:07	I almost started this thread last week. I have been learning to play the cello for two years now, and I go through times when inner voices say things like "Why are you doing this at your age?" and "This is for young people who have plenty of time to practice." and "What are you ever going to have in the end to show for all the time and energy you have put in to this?" My teacher has been helping me to overcome these thoughts and keep a positive attitude. He has the same expectations for me as his young students, and sometimes even greater expectations, I think, because he knows how much time I spend practicing, and he does not accept excuses such as my age or short arms and fingers. However, there are times when I do struggle with doubts and negative thoughts, and I have the greatest appreciation for the encouragement and inspiration from members of this forum. From reading so many posts on this topic, I have come to realize that there is nothing unique about having doubts and feeling discouraged at times, and when this happens I force myself to think positive thoughts, such as discovering at my age what it is like to LOVE playing an instrument and wishing I had more time to practice. Also, appreciating the fact that I already play the cello better than the instruments I learned to play as a child (piano, clarinet), even though I spent more years learning to play those instruments. AND..IMO...having the opportunity to play the most beautiful music in the world on the most beautiful instrument in the world!
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cellopurple	Love for the cello	#11	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 288 06/25/09 02:39:14 Supporting CelloChatter	At the end of the day, this is probably what keeps us going, don't you think? Through thick and thin, and busy spells at work, and personal problems, and demanding families, and general exhaustion at times: I keep going because I am quite besotted. I have never adjusted to the sense of privilege I have in the opportunity to play some of this magical music. I am working on Mendelssohn's Song without Words just now (it's very hard) and it's such a lovely piece and at times, when snatches of it come together and the cello and the music just soar, there are no words to describe how happy it makes me. Allison
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PaoloV		#12	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 127 07/01/09 14:52:58	Yup, I've had long dry spells away from cello too (buying a house, working on stuff related to the house, long family stayovers, etc.), but I've stuck with it and it's continued to reward me.
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Wxerby	Encouragement	#13	[url]	[-]
Reticent CelloChatter Posts: 657 07/01/09 17:19:22 Supporting CelloChatter	This is the real great thing about this board. So many of us are in exactly the same situation - adults who love the cello and very much want to improve. This is when the kind of support you are getting here is so valuable. One of the 'adultish' behaviours that we as mature cello students contend with is letting feelings of incompetence get us down and make us feel 'untalented', 'uncoordinated' or something like that, when in many areas of life we have gotten used to feeling competent, or decided that we don't care if we are competent at something (eg, for me, fixing things around the house - I'm incompetent, but I don't care - thats what the Yellow Pages are for). For cello, though, I deeply care that I'm not playing as I would like and that sometimes gets me down, especially when I'm struggling with something and seeming to get nowhere. But I keep telling myself that it takes as long as it takes, and hearing from others here that they find the going slow as well helps me to just keep working, judging myself a little less harshly. It helps just to play something simple and enjoy that wonderful sound reverberating through my body. Its such a great instrument to have the honour to play.
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Chickguitarguy	Try and enjoy the process . . .	#14	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 99 07/02/09 06:45:43	One of the things a teacher of mine used to say when I expressed to him my frustration at my inability to progress as fast as I would like is this: focus on the process, not the end result. I know this sounds simplistic, but it really does make sense to me. In this case, "process" = our practise sessions, our performing, and everyting else that goes into playing the cello. It helps to stay focused on the PRESENT during a practise sesssion. I try to remove from my mind expectations regarding how I "should" sound, especially negative reactions ("omg, how did I miss that shift? I've done it a thousand times! I'm terrible!" - stuff like that, not healthy). That doesn't mean I don't try and correct mistakes, or intonation errors, or strive to improve my tone. But I try not to get frustrated - I'm reminded of that old expression "it is what it is". I also thinik it helps to remind yourself that we are ALL on this same road, and that road stretches on to infinity. There is no "end", you do not "arrive" - you just keep going, practising and performing and slowly inching along. And if you can enjoy traveling on this road, and forget about "arriving" anywhere, it can be an incredible experience. Easier said than done, I realize. Brian
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PinkFluffySlippers	Encouraged :)	#15	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 223 07/07/09 22:32:17 Active CelloChatter	Just wanted to share a lovely cello moment. I really worked since my last lesson, and tonight's was much better. My new piece was in decent shape, and I played two Bach suite movements that I've worked on for months. They're not finished but they're definitely sounding better. There was one moment, I heard lovely sounds coming out of my cello. It occurred to me-- hey, I'm playing the cello. I'm playing Bach on the cello! I nearly got chills. At that moment, it all seemed worthwhile
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Praa		#16	[url]	[-]
New CelloChatter Posts: 15 07/08/09 06:26:47	I've been taking lessons for about the same as you, 2+ years, and every single one of your difficulties is utterly familiar. Maybe because I'm an adult beginner, the teacher doesn't think I need to be encouraged the way children are. There's a certain logic in that - after all, why waste lesson time telling you how much you've improved? Especially if you haven't. No use fantasizing that one day she'll say "I never thought you would make so much progress in such a short time!" or "You are far and away my best adult beginner!" etc. etc. Last lesson I was complaining about how I couldn't play anything in Eb major, or any other key properly for that matter. She handed me the Bach Bourree from the Eb suite and said "This won't sound any good but it will be good for you to try and play" so I took it away and work-work-worked and after a week or so, it still doesn't sound any good (true) but - you would know what it was! Hah! And now I can find A flat! The lesson being (a) she was right to do that rather than tell me I'm making wonderful progress (b) instead of moaning about not being able to play Bach, do what Bach meant the music to do - teach you about playing in Eb. Only practice works, but it does work.
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Trixie		#17	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 51 07/19/09 23:23:00	My former teacher had a little embroidered piece in her studio that said, "The woods would be silent if the only bird who sang were he who sings best." These instruments are hard as hell to play. They really are harder than most other instruments where you can actually find the notes and they don't move around from day to day. I love how expressive a bow can be, but my God, it's so hard to get it to do right. Give yourself a big pat on the back for getting better on the cello! We are lucky to be able to enjoy learning over a long time, and the emotions of discouragement and joy are like seasons that we visit again. Enjoy the journey~
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Spanish cello		#18	[url]	[-]
Active CelloChatter Posts: 56 07/20/09 06:54:49 Active CelloChatter	Yeah...we are all on the same boat....frustration and excitement, it all comes and goes...some days you feel like your are a reeeeally good adult player, and some others you look at Youtube and think: wow...look at this 10 year old boy...what am I pretending to do playing cello??? But I think it is all part of the process of learning. If you are don't ever feel frustrated, you will never feel the need to spend the time to progress in your playing, and the excitement makes you feel so good to never ever quit the cello... so, it is all part of the game... sometimes I wish I was a child not to be THAT aware of this, so sometimes it's good to behave like a child, and take things as they come, not to be so self-aware of all the mistakes you're making. Do not think too much about it, the cycle of "frustration->excitement" will come soon. In my case, I'm taking lessons with a teacher that has never taught to an amateur player, only professionals, so specially at the beginning, it was really hard to adjust to his methods and the amount of hours he wanted me to practice a day (hello??we are adult players with a life out of the cello???): lots of frustration for me...but when I look back now and I remember how I played for him in the very first class, and how I play now, I think it all was worth it, including the frustration. The key for me is to add a bit of patience to the recipe. As adult learners, we need an extra shot of patience to bear to listen to ourselves and to bear to listen to our teacher criticism So don't worry, the day of excitement will come soon
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Discouraged	06/23/09 23:17:57	PinkFluffySlippers
I think this will be familiar to loads of folk here!	06/24/09 03:19:06	cellopurple
Re: Discouraged	06/24/09 03:43:50	Ellen G
Welcome to the club!	06/24/09 06:44:11	Tim Janof
Encouragement	06/24/09 06:51:24	Bob
Encouragement	06/24/09 20:58:32	celloswin
Re: Discouraged	06/24/09 07:35:11	badlands cello
Re: Discouraged	06/24/09 10:25:14	PinkFluffySlippers
You've been listening to me practice!	06/24/09 12:42:51	DianaCaldwell
Re: Discouraged	06/24/09 13:24:54	MHamlen
Re: Discouraged	06/24/09 21:46:07	Ellen Cello
Love for the cello	06/25/09 02:39:14	cellopurple
Re: Discouraged	07/01/09 14:52:58	PaoloV
Encouragement	07/01/09 17:19:22	Wxerby
Try and enjoy the process . . .	07/02/09 06:45:43	Chickguitarguy
Encouraged :)	07/07/09 22:32:17	PinkFluffySlippers
Re: Discouraged	07/08/09 06:26:47	Praa
Re: Discouraged	07/19/09 23:23:00	Trixie
Re: Discouraged	07/20/09 06:54:49	Spanish cello